NEPHILIM : THE GIANTS OF GENESIS
Copyright 1994 - 2008 Endtime Prophecy Org
Last Updated : July 23, 2006
What The Bible Says About These Legendary Creatures
The mere mention of the word 'giant' conjures up different
images in the minds of us all. Some of us immediately think
of little David and the giant Goliath. Others perhaps think
of Gulliver's Travels, or maybe one of their favorite sci-fi
movies such as the Fifty-Foot Woman. The tale of Apollo in
one of the first generation Star Trek TV shows is another
good candidate. Then of course, we also have Jack And The
Beanstalk, Paul Bunyan and the ho-ho-ho Jolly Green Giant!
The figures from Roman and Greek mythology also fit well.
These are but a few of the many images which have been
passed down to us from ancient times up to the current day.
In this paper however, we shall deal with one specific facet
of this intriguing topic, i.e., the giants of the Bible. Let
me state from the beginning that what follows has been a
very exciting revelation for me as I have never undertaken
such an in-depth study of this issue of giants. The flow of
events from Genesis on up to the links I have discovered
with current day events is truly fascinating for me...and I
hope it will be for you as well.
GIANTS BEFORE THE GENESIS FLOOD:
That there were giants before the Great Deluge is
unquestionable. We have but to read the following in Genesis
6:1-4 to see that this is true:
"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face
of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,"
"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they
were fair; and they took them wives of all which they
chose."
"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with
man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an
hundred and twenty years."
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also
after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters
of men, and they bare children to them, the same became
mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
The common interpretation of these verses accepted by most
orthodox Christians, at least those who are even aware of
them, is that the 'sons of God' mentioned here is referring
to the righteous descendants of Seth (the 3rd son of Adam &
Eve), who beheld the beauty of the daughters of the
descendants of Cain and made love to them, thus producing
giants in the land. If that is what they want to believe,
that is their right, but I prefer another interpretation
which seems to be more in line with scriptures.
As some reading this will already know, the other
interpretation of these verses is what has commonly become
known as the Nephilim, or the anunnaki, in certain circles.
According to this understanding, the 'sons of God' (with a
capital 'G'), is referring to actual spiritual entities in
the heavenly realm. These spiritual beings were so entranced
by the beauty of earthly women that they forsook their
heavenly abode & made love to them. This is what resulted in
the giants being born. In some of the apocryphal apocalyptic
works (ancient scrolls not included in the Bible), such as
the Book of Enoch, these spiritual entities are referred to
as the Watchers. According to the accounts I have read in
several of these works, these angelic beings had the task of
instructing early man on the Earth. Instead however, led by
Mastema (Satan), Azazael, Semjaza and others, they rebelled
against the Lord and performed their dastardly deeds, thus
producing the evil giants known as Nephilim which were from
ten to fifteen feet tall.
To the surprise of some, and contrary to what certain
Christians might believe, Satan & his followers were at one
time (and may still possibly be) allowed to enter the courts
of Heaven. Consider the following verse which refers to the
angelic beings as 'sons of God':
"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present
themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
to present himself before the LORD." (Job 2:1)
This same verse is repeated several times throughout this
book. Interesting indeed! Not only are spiritual beings
referred to as 'sons of God,' but Satan is counted among
them as well! There is some dispute regarding exactly when
the book of Job was written. Some say that it is actually
the oldest book in the King James Bible written even before
the Pentateuch. If this is true, and I will not say one way
or the other, perhaps it is possible that Job's testing by
Satan occurred before Satan/Lucifer had completely rebelled
against God. Perhaps at that time he was just being a pest.
6Isaiah 14 5deals more directly with this topic of Lucifer's
rebellion and fall, as do some of the other apocryphal works
I have read. The main point we have established with this
verse is that spiritual beings were referred to as 'sons of
God' and Satan was counted among them without a doubt. And a
final point to enforce this idea: Jesus was referred to as
both the Son of God, and as the son of man due to the fact
that He was the result of a union between a human woman and
a spiritual being, just like these giants. The primary
difference is that His birth was the direct will of God & He
came to fulfill a positive objective.
The above understanding adds a lot of weight to the argument
that the 'sons of God' mentioned in Genesis six are in fact
spiritual beings, the Watchers, & not earthly humans as is
accepted by orthodox Christianity. Considering that Satan is
already at work in the first chapter of Job, this seems to
confirm the Book of Enoch when it says that Lucifer, a.k.a.
Mastema, spearheaded this renegade band of spirits when they
came down to the Earth to rape the human women...although,
considering that even Satan can appear as an angel of light,
we can only wonder if it was really rape, or if these women
were mesmerized and seduced into believing these fiends were
actually handsome...such as in 'you handsome devil, you!'
The apocryphal scrolls state this very thing, that they were
indeed handsome creatures.
While some may question whether or not these spiritual
creatures were actually evil, aside from what we read in the
Book of Enoch, the surrounding verses in the book of Genesis
which explain the consequences of their actions, also
indicate that they were. God was apparently angered by the
rebellious action of these demons, so much so that Genesis
6:3 tells us that God either immediately cut man's life span
to 120 years, or else He decided at that point that He would
send the flood 120 years later to completely wipe out all of
the descendants of these evil hybrids. Again, the
interpretation of this 120 years mentioned in verse three is
another topic of controversy within Christian circles. I
will mention that it was approximately 120 years after the
words were uttered in verse three that the Flood did in fact
come. It will also be noted that after Noah and his
immediate descendants, the average life span of man did in
fact begin to decline rapidly from the hundreds of years he
had lived before. There are different theories regarding
what caused this: curse of God, genetic disorder due to sin
in man's heart, removal of the band of water circling the
Earth after the Flood, etc. We can discuss this at another
time.
But to conclude this section, consider this question:
Could it be that the 'Nephilim' in Genesis six were trying
for a pre-emptive strike to destroy God's ultimate plan for
humanity, that of salvation? It seems highly likely. Perhaps
their early invasion of Earth was their feeble attempt to
set up their own kingdom before the arrival of the Christ
child. If they had been in control, perhaps they could have
prevented His birth, or at least made sure that their pawn
Herod had done the job right, thus foiling God's plan and
jeopardizing humanity.
GIANTS AFTER THE GENESIS FLOOD:
That there were giants after the Flood is undeniable...but
the question is, 'Were they direct descendants of the
Nephilim, or were they just the result of some human genetic
disorder which occurred in Noah's descendants some time
after the Flood?
I first heard of the giants many years ago from a preacher
who also said that Goliath was a descendant of these giants.
However, the problem is that according to Genesis, except
for the eight members of Noah's family _ALL_ life was
destroyed. To believe that these giants somehow survived
contradicts the Genesis account, and basically says that God
failed in His plan to eradicate His 1st creation which had
been corrupted & turned evil. Granted, if we accept the
interpretation of Genesis six that the Nephilim were giants
resulting from a spiritual/human sexual union, this may have
given them some physical advantage, but still, the flood
waters rose way above the highest mountains, and it was a
global flood...& Genesis does say that _ALL_ life was
destroyed. Now, in spite of the mixed seed, these giants
were still human, so I don't think they could walk on water
like Jesus did. Besides, that would still contradict the
word 'ALL'. The only other possibility is to accept that
they were airlifted by the demons who had spawned them to
begin with...but again, that would mean that God's plan
failed...which I don't believe.
This is indeed a perplexing issue for me...particularly in
light of the fact that there is clear evidence of giants in
the Bible way after the Flood. Consider these verses from
Numbers 13:22-33 where Moses sends Joshua, Caleb & company
to spy out the promised land of Canaan:
"And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where
Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were.
(Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)"
"Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land,
and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we
saw the children of Anak there."
"And they brought up an evil report of the land which they
had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land,
through which we have gone to search it, is a land that
eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that
we saw in it are men of a great stature."
"And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come
of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers,
and so we were in their sight."
Here we have first mention of the sons of Anak, also know as
the Anunnaki or the Anakims. Here are additional verses
which tell of the same thing and the same people:
"A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom
thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand
before the children of Anak!" (Deuteronomy 9:2)
"And unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh he gave a part among
the children of Judah, according to the commandment of the
LORD to Joshua, even the city of Arba the father of Anak,
which city is Hebron." (Joshua 15:13)
"And Caleb drove thence the three sons of Anak, Sheshai, and
Ahiman, and Talmai, the children of Anak." (Joshua 15:14)
"And they gave them the city of Arba the father of Anak,
which city is Hebron, in the hill country of Judah, with the
suburbs thereof round about it." (Joshua 21:11)
"And they gave Hebron unto Caleb, as Moses said: and he
expelled thence the three sons of Anak." (Judges 1:20)
Aside from the fact that the above verses are important to
the discussion of Biblical giants, there is a much deeper
more important significance to these events. It was
extremely important to the Lord that His people via Moses,
Joshua & Caleb, gain control of Hebron, the headquarters of
the Anakims, the Anunnaki, the Nephilim, whatever you prefer
to call them. We know from Biblical history that before
being called Hebron, this city was known as Arba or Arbah.
This city has been important to the Lord since the days of
Abraham. In Genesis 35:27 we read:
"And Jacob came unto Isaac his father unto Mamre, unto the
city of Arbah, which is Hebron, where Abraham and Isaac
sojourned."
Arba, or Hebron, later became King David's headquarters who
was an ancestor of Jesus himself. Even back then, God was
preparing Israel for the arrival of their King & the Saviour
of the world. In our current day, Hebron has once again
grabbed the headlines & world attention in a big way as the
Jews and Palestinians negotiate over this very town. Since the
beginning of time, Israel, and Jerusalem in particular, has
played a very important role in world history, and in God's
ultimate plan. The spiritual war revealed in the Garden of
Eden, later heightened by the arrival of the Nephilim, has
been going on ever since...and the Bible tells us that it
will end in the very area of the world where it began!
Notice also that in Joshua 15:13 & 21:11 we are informed
that the father of Anak was Arba. It was a usual occurrence
to name a city after a personage, just as it is today. Upon
conquering Arba, they renamed it Hebron (or Hevron). I don't
have any further information on Arba, but it would be
interesting to find out how the sons of Anak, the Anakims,
came to possess it to begin with after Abraham's days. There
must be some close connection there. What is interesting is
that Arbah is very close to the name Abraham...and in
Aramaic, 'Abba' means father...and Abraham was the father of
the Hebrews. Could it be that the city was initially named
after Abraham when he sojourned there, and that Anak's
father acquired his name of Arba because he was born in the
town of that name? I really have no resources to verify this
theory.
Contrary to what one might think, in spite of this conquest
of what later became known as Hebron, this is not the last
we hear of these evil giants. Even after this victory by
Joshua, Caleb and the rest, the Anakims still had a
stronghold...and this is also very significant as it is also
a place which is currently a part of the whole
Israeli-Palestinian problem:
"There was none of the Anakims left in the land of the
children of Israel: only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod,
there remained." (Joshua 11:22)
Briefly, what happened after this is that the children of
Israel fell in and out of favor with the Lord due to their
disobedience and hardness of heart. Each time, the Lord
would punish them by allowing their enemies to conquer them.
In the following key verses, the Philistines have conquered
the Hebrews and stolen the Ark of the Covenant which
contained all of the holy items such as Aaron's rod, the
books of the law, etc. Little did they realize their grave
mistake until it was too late. Each town the Ark was taken
to, which included Gath, the stronghold of the Anakims (or
descendants of the sons of Anak), the Lord would smite the
inhabitants until finally, nobody wanted it anymore. So the
Philistines consulted their 'high priests' and it was
decided that they would return the Ark to the Israelites &
even include a few gifts just to make sure they were back on
good terms with the Hebrew God:
"They sent therefore and gathered all the lords of the
Philistines unto them, and said, What shall we do with the
ark of the God of Israel? And they answered, Let the ark of
the God of Israel be carried about unto Gath. And they
carried the ark of the God of Israel about thither." (1
Samuel 5:8)
"And these are the golden emerods which the Philistines
returned for a trespass offering unto the LORD; for Ashdod
one, for Gaza one, for Askelon one, for Gath one, for Ekron
one;" (1 Samuel 6:17)
After this, there was about a twenty year span during which
time the Israelites again began to worship other gods. So as
before, the Lord sent the Philistines to fight against them
again. Fearing the worst, the Israelites sought the prophet
Samuel to intervene before the Lord for them, which he did,
& there was wrought a great victory for the Hebrews that
day. The Bible does not go into great detail regarding this
battle, but it appears that there was some kind of
miraculous intervention. This resulted in the following:
"And the cities which the Philistines had taken from Israel
were restored to Israel, from Ekron even unto Gath; and the
coasts thereof did Israel deliver out of the hands of the
Philistines. And there was peace between Israel and the
Amorites." (1 Samuel 7:14)
Notice that Gath of the Anakims was included in the spoil.
After this, the Bible tells us that there is a period of
peace but that the Israelites once again begin to complain
against the Lord and have rejected Him as their true and
rightful spiritual King. Some of the Israelites then demand
that a human king be set over them. The Bible then records
that Samuel eventually anoints Saul as the first king of
Israel due to the hardness of their hearts. It isn't long
before Saul likewise displeases the Lord, and the Lord
rejects him as being king. We then get into the story of the
power struggle between the house of Saul & the house of
David during which time the Philistines once again attack
the Israelites...and this time they have a giant of a hero
named Goliath...a descendant of the Anakims. This guy was
somewhere between nine to over eleven feet tall depending on
which lengths you accept for the cubit and the span. We all
know the story. With the anointing of God, David the young
shepherd boy slays the Anakim giant and the Philistine army
flees before the forces of Israel all the way back to Gath:
"And there went out a champion out of the camp of the
Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six
cubits and a span." (1 Samuel 17:4)
"And as he talked with them, behold, there came up the
champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, out of
the armies of the Philistines, and spake according to the
same words: and David heard them." (1 Samuel 17:23)
"And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and
pursued the Philistines, until thou come to the valley, and
to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines
fell down by the way to Shaaraim, even unto Gath, and unto
Ekron." (1 Samuel 17:52)
In a strange twist of fate, David flees from Saul who
refuses to give up his kingship, and ends up seeking refuge
with his very enemies, Achish, the king of Gath who is a
Philistine:
"And David arose, and fled that day for fear of Saul, and
went to Achish the king of Gath." (1 Sam. 21:10)
"And David laid up these words in his heart, and was sore
afraid of Achish the king of Gath." (1 Sam. 21:12)
"And David arose, and he passed over with the six hundred
men that were with him unto Achish, the son of Maoch, king
of Gath." (1 Samuel 27:2)
"And David dwelt with Achish at Gath, he and his men, every
man with his household, even David with his two wives,
Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, & Abigail the Carmelitess, Nabal's
wife." (1 Samuel 27:3)
"And it was told Saul that David was fled to Gath: and he
sought no more again for him." (1 Samuel 27:4)
We are then told that David dwells several years with
Achish, the King of Gath. Eventually, the Philistines war
again against Israel & Saul his three sons are killed in
battle. While Achish participated in this battle against
Saul & the Israelites, it is interesting to note that the
Philistine lords did not trust David, so he was sent back to
the land of the Philistines & had no hand in the death of
Saul. Actually, Saul is seriously wounded during the war so
falls upon his own sword as his armourbearer refuses to kill
him. His armourbearer then also proceeds to take his own
life. We later find out that an Amalekite comes upon Saul
who has fallen upon his sword & is in great agony, but has
not yet died, so this man, at Saul's request, finishes the
job for him. Eventually the Philistines arrive and cut off
the head of Saul and carry it through the Philistine cities
to brag of their deeds. As to the man who did a mercy
killing on Saul. David had him slain because, even though
Saul had turned against David, David still considered him
the Lord's anointed. As far as Achish is concerned, there
is no further mention of him. We can only assume that peace
remained between him and David because of the kindnesses
they had shown to each other...even though later David (and
others) took the city of Gath.
The account of David and Goliath of Gath can also be found
in the book of Second Samuel as well as in the book of First
Chronicles. These books provide a little more detail about
the destruction of Goliath the giant of Gath & his four
sons: Ishbibenob, Saph (or Sippai), Lahmi, and a fourth un
named son who were also giants. In these books, Goliath is
referred to as Goliath the Gittite:
"And Ishbibenob, which was of the sons of the giant, the
weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of brass
in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have
slain David." (2 Sam. 21:16)
"But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the
Philistine, and killed him. Then the men of David sware unto
him, saying, Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle,
that thou quench not the light of Israel." (2 Samuel 21:17)
"And it came to pass after this, that there was again a
battle with the Philistines at Gob: then Sibbechai the
Hushathite slew Saph, which was of the sons of the giant."
(2 Samuel 21:18)
"And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines,
where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew
the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear
was like a weaver's beam." (2 Samuel 21:19)
"And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of
great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on
every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also
was born to the giant." (2 Samuel 21:20)
"And when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea the
brother of David slew him." (2 Samuel 21:21)
"These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the
hand of David, and by the hand of his servants." (2 Samuel
21:22)
"And it came to pass after this, that there arose war at
Gezer with the Philistines; at which time Sibbechai the
Hushathite slew Sippai, that was of the children of the
giant: and they were subdued." (1 Chronicles 20:4)
"And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan
the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the
Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam." (1
Chronicles 20:5)
"And yet again there was war at Gath, where was a man of
great stature, whose fingers and toes were four and twenty,
six on each hand, and six on each foot: and he also was the
son of the giant." (1 Chronicles 20:6)
"But when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea
David's brother slew him." (1 Chron. 20:7)
"These were born unto the giant in Gath; and they fell by
the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants." (1
Chronicles 20:8)
With the death of Goliath & eventually his immediate family,
this did not end the wars between the Israelites & the
Philistines. However, it must have weakened them
considerably as we find several examples of the destruction
of the Philistine cities of the giants. Speaking of David,
we find:
"Now after this it came to pass, that David smote the
Philistines, and subdued them, and took Gath and her towns
out of the hand of the Philistines." (1 Chronicles 18:1)
And then there is Uzziah:
"And he went forth and warred against the Philistines, and
brake down the wall of Gath, and the wall of Jabneh, and the
wall of Ashdod, and built cities about Ashdod, and among the
Philistines." (2 Chronicles 26:6)
We also have the Syrian King Hazael:
"Then Hazael king of Syria went up, and fought against Gath,
and took it: and Hazael set his face to go up to Jerusalem."
(2 Kings 12:17)
So it appears that beginning with the death of Goliath the
giant of Gath, a son of the Anak, we have the beginning of
the end of what is left of the Anakim. There are a few other
light mentions of Gath in the Bible, but no further mention
of the sons of Anak, or of any giants. Whether any of the
other Philistine inhabitants of Gath, Ashdod, Jabneh, Arba
or Gaza were giants, we really don't know. If they were,
there is no specific mention of them in the Bible.
As mentioned earlier in this paper, no direct Biblical
connection can be found between the giants of Genesis,
commonly known as the Nephilim, and these later giants
called the sons of the Anak. The Flood would have seemingly
made it impossible. The fact that mere humans with the
anointing of God were able to destroy this second group of
giants also seems to indicate that these were not the same
as the Nephilim. I prefer to think of them, (the Anak), as a
genetic aberration. Consider that at least one of Goliath's
sons had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each
foot. Perhaps Goliath did as well, but the Bible doesn't
state this.
There is, however, one very interesting point I would like
to bring up here. In the Old Testament, there are only four
books where the devil is mentioned by the name of Satan.
They are in Job, Psalms, Zechariah, & I Chronicles. In other
places he is referred to as Lucifer or as a serpent or
dragon. What I find interesting is that this last mention of
'Satan' is found exactly one verse after the four sons of
Goliath are slain. This verse says:
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to
number Israel." (1 Chronicles 21:1)
The Devil was very upset that the seed of the Anak had been
destroyed by David and his servants. Remember earlier how I
mentioned that the war has been going on since Genesis to
stop the Christ child from being born? Perhaps there is more
here with the Anak than meets the eye...or perhaps they were
just mortal men, albeit BIG ones, heavily influenced by
Satan to fulfill his devious plan.
At any rate, having lost some of his best pawns, Lucifer
then persuaded David to make a census of the children of
Israel. This greatly displeased the Lord, and because of
David's sin, 70,000 people were slain of the Israelites. But
that isn't all. This same chapter tells us that the Lord
sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem because of David's sin.
We read that David lifts up his eyes and actually sees this
angel:
"And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD
stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword
in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the
elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon
their faces." (1 Chronicles 21:16)
David regrets his mistake and the Lord repents of His desire
to destroy the city. After David purchases some land from
Ornan (who also sees the angel with his four sons), and
makes a burnt offering to the Lord, read what happens next
in 1 Chronicles 21:26-30:
"And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered
burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the
LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar
of burnt offering."
"And the LORD commanded the angel; and he put up his sword
again into the sheath thereof."
"At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him
in the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he
sacrificed there."
"For the tabernacle of the LORD, which Moses made in the
wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at
that season in the high place at Gibeon."
"But David could not go before it to enquire of God: for he
was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the LORD."
Right after the defeat of the biblical giants, the sons of
Anak, who some refer to as the Nephilim or anunnaki, Lucifer
causes David to blow it, and then we have this wonderful
celestial visitation which is witnessed by at least six or
more people. Now if this angel was seen suspended between
the Earth and the Sky with his sword _over_ Jerusalem, and
David clearly saw him as did the others, either this guy was
very big, as was his sword, or else this is referring to
something else.
Once we have the altar built, as in other instances in the
Bible, the Lord confirms His presence by 'shooting' fire
down upon the altar. Notice in the final verse that it says
that David is afraid because of the angel's sword. It seems
to me that there is a connection here between this large
sword over Jerusalem, and the fire coming down to consume
the sacrifice.
Either we have one powerful lightening bolt here, or else
this is another confirmation of the Lord's advanced
technology. I leave the reader to decide for yourself. As I
type this, I think too of the awesome destruction of Sodom &
Gommorah by two of the Lord's angels.
Whatever the case may be, this is one powerful event which
follows the destruction of the Anakim, the giants of the
Bible. As stated previously, I find it quite interesting
that two areas of Israel which were once under domination of
the Philistine giants, the Anakim, (i.e., Gaza and Hebron),
are today once again the subjects of war, violence &
international diplomacy. Could this be symbolic of the
greater spiritual war which is going on? If these Nephilim,
& Anakim or anunnaki are indeed related to each other in
some way, could it be that they are once again preparing for
war to try to stop the rightful heir of David from coming
back to Earth to claim His own? It is certainly a sobering
thought to consider.
With that, we bring this study of the giants of the Bible to
a close. This has been quite an adventure for me in the
wonderful Word of God. I trust that it has been as
enlightening and as fruitful for you the reader as well. Any
comments, pro or con, or any additional concrete supporting
evidence would be greatly appreciated.